Calling V8Demon

"1337HPMustang" (1337hpmustang) 11/27/2014 at 23:03 • Filed to: Mustang

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or anyone else who know anything about superchargers.

Looking at !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! specifically. Uses a TVS system which is apparently the latest in roots type induction technology, something about better cooling. The kit comes with the capability to make about 150 more hp than I currently have and, being a stage I kit, is upgradable to stage II with just a pulley swap; so there is further tunability (is that a real word?). The injectors, fuel rail, and throttle body that come with the kit are apparently satisfactory up until the 600 hp range.

Best of all, I won't need to buy any additional hardware seeing as the fuel pump, engine and tranny can handle it safely with people reporting no issues (for years at this point). Might have to swap clutch though but that's ok. Hopefully cooling isn't an issue though at stage one it shouldn't be. Also I have a 1 mm lift on my cams (hot rod cams), am wondering what implications that has. What do ya'll think?

$5300 S/C + $500 long tube headers + ~$1000 tuning= one badass whiny stang?

camaroboy68ss > 1337HPMustang 11/27/2014 at 23:19

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I like superchargers over turbos all day, seems like an ok kit, but I no experience with late model motors with induction, last car I had any time with was a old school 454 with a 6-71 blower. how much boost is being made? a clutch it a upgrade to look into. I know on my Camaro its almost a must with just a heads and cam swap.

as for the headers just be careful what you buy. I know in the the LS engine community there is a lot of junk on ebay. so buyer beware if not buying a well know brand.

jkm7680 > 1337HPMustang 11/27/2014 at 23:24

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If the engine can handle it without needing a partial/full rebuild or ported and polished heads, it's probably a keeper.

 V8 Rustler > 1337HPMustang 11/27/2014 at 23:24

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Twin-Supercharger.

Funktheduck > 1337HPMustang 11/27/2014 at 23:24

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I know the cam will have an effect, but I don't know if it'll be for the better or worse. The cam would keep the valves open longer so for the better? I'm leaning towards better. I think you'd be good to go.

1337HPMustang >  V8 Rustler 11/27/2014 at 23:33

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lol replace the alternator with a centri? Better use of pulley amirite?

1337HPMustang > camaroboy68ss 11/27/2014 at 23:39

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Dude you had a birdcatcher?! On a 454?! No way, that's so sweet! This kit starts off with a modest 6 lbs of boost, but some dude had 450 whp with that so it's more than I need at the moment. I think I'm going to cheapen out and buy some $300 carbon steel Pacesetters since they're an easy install and they work. Why pay the premium, right?

1337HPMustang > jkm7680 11/27/2014 at 23:43

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Yep I should be fine. Rule of thumb for the 3V 4.6 is at above 500 hp you swap internals. Heads will apparently make a huge difference even with out the supercharger, just my cams, I'm talking 30 hp for my low compression engine. But I'll save that for "stage II" when I rebuild with forged internals some years down the line.

1337HPMustang > Funktheduck 11/27/2014 at 23:46

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they just sound baddass, so I don't really care if they hamper performance. I'm keeping them!

V8Demon - Prefers Autos for drag racing. Fite me! > 1337HPMustang 11/27/2014 at 23:54

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I hear good things about the TVS blowers. A friend upgraded to a TVS on his 04 Cobra. He had a ported Eaton beforehand. Gains were substantial.

I really need to upgrade the torque converter on my car before I crank up the boost. I'm running a 6-7 psi pulley right now, but I have no intercooler. The pulleys are rated for what would be seen on an intercooled setup on the Whipples. I actually see 9-10 psi depending on air conditions. Colder is of course better. Even with my rather tame setup I made 402 rwhp on a Mustang dyno which equates to around 425 on a dynojet. Figure 475 crank maybe more. Reason I went with the non intercooled kit was I got to keep the warranty on the car. The converter and intercooler upgrade with another dyno tune should put me in the 10s, but the I'll probably just do the converter. I'd be pushing the limits of the stock rotating assembly on my 3v with the intercooler and a 12 psi pulley. I'm not ready to shell out for a forged rotating assembly yet.

camaroboy68ss > 1337HPMustang 11/27/2014 at 23:55

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be careful with pacesetters, they are spotty at best on quality and fit and, in the ls1 Camaro/firebird community, not always true to pipe size.

yeah my grandpa built a 454 for his show truck, 454 block bored .060 over, BDS 6-71 with dual holleys, has the typical old school whump-whump-whump idle. only pic I have of the truck. I need to find better pics to scan.

1337HPMustang > V8Demon - Prefers Autos for drag racing. Fite me! 11/28/2014 at 00:01

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ah good to know. Cooling shouldn't be an issue for me then since I live in a temperate place and the kit comes with an intercooler. So you didn't upgrade your fuel pump, eh? I hear some mechanics recommend that be done but the majority of people don't. Thanks for the info. Watch out, I'm gunning to be the fastest mustang on oppo, you better get on those upgrades quick lol!

1337HPMustang > camaroboy68ss 11/28/2014 at 00:10

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d.a.m.n. that thing is a beast. I always wondered what these kinds of cars would put down on a dyno. Probably damn near 800 hp, eh?

I think enough people have bought the pacesetters and reported little problems with them that I'd be safe to do so. Apparently I'll have to coat them myself with some high temp stuff but I don't mind a little extra project.

signintoburnerlol > 1337HPMustang 11/28/2014 at 00:11

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Get a ceramic coating on those headers. I never released how much a difference it makes on overall engine temperature.

Remember, heat is the enemy of engines, transmission and differentials.

God speed with modding.

camaroboy68ss > 1337HPMustang 11/28/2014 at 00:19

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it was probably only 600-650 at the flywheel, the truck was pure trailer baby, never got above 20 mph. it was unload show and reload.

I guess the pacesetter problem then might be isolated to just ls1 f-bodys, I ended up with a set of stainless OBX for my 98.

1337HPMustang > signintoburnerlol 11/28/2014 at 00:24

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you know what, I never thought of that. I was going to get cheap ass $300 carbon steel ones and paint them with some high temp paint but now I'm thinking that's probably a bad idea in the long run. I should get ceramic coated ones... thanks. Any idea if you can get headers without a ceramic coating, coated? I'm wondering how much would that cost because the ceramic coated ones are pricey.

offroadkarter > 1337HPMustang 11/28/2014 at 01:59

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500 at the wheels? I've always heard 450rwhp with a 2 and 4 valve so what makes the 3 valve so different there. 500rwhp you better have a bombproof tune and some meth, and never ever get a bad gas of tank. Even then you are on borrowed time, it won't last forever.

wabbalosthiskey > 1337HPMustang 11/28/2014 at 02:13

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Don't paint them with anything, including high temp paint, you'll end up with a worse mess than when you started. Skip buying factory-coated ones as well because the answer to your question is yes, you can have them coated. For the same or less money, buy good bare steel or stainless headers, and have them coated by a local place that does ceramic coating. You'll get a better product with better coverage that will last longer than most "factory coated" ones.

wabbalosthiskey > 1337HPMustang 11/28/2014 at 02:21

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A fuel pump upgrade is something you simply either need or you don't, and the variation you see between cars (some need it at 400rwhp, some at 450, etc) has to do with the efficiency of whatever induction setup they are running. Typically a 3v stock pump is good for around 420 rwhp. If you end up needing a little more a boost-a-pump (BAP) is a cheap and easy way to extend it, otherwise drop in a GT500 unit.

wabbalosthiskey > 1337HPMustang 11/28/2014 at 02:26

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These are good kits with nice hardware, but they are limited and don't have the greatest upgrade path once you max out the unit. I have put on lots of them and done lots of the stage 2/stage 3 upgrades as well. A couple weeks ago we took a stage 1 car and put in hot rod cams and longtubes, dyno'd it and then the stage 2 upgrade, but it's 1130pm on turkey day and i have no memory of how much it made... If I think about it next week I'll pull the dyno sheets.

If you want bang for the buck power this isn't really the best way to do it, but if you like the kit, then they do work well.

wabbalosthiskey > 1337HPMustang 11/28/2014 at 02:35

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The FRPPs have the best sound of any 3v cam until you get up into the super aggressive profiles (typically sold as "stage 3" and beyond), and they have some of the best power gains even over many that require valvespring changes.

As far as how they will work with a supercharger, the short answer is that while they aren't going to be as beneficial as a set specifically designed for boost, they are small enough that they will only help you. As you get into larger camshafts you have to worry about excessive overlap which can work against you with a blower, but those will work great and they keep tuning super-simple.

V8Demon - Prefers Autos for drag racing. Fite me! > 1337HPMustang 11/28/2014 at 02:46

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I've hot lapped mine on a 90+ degree day at the drag strip. Zero issues.

DoYouEvenShift > 1337HPMustang 11/28/2014 at 08:21

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TVS is the tits. Very efficient and much quiter. They use twin, four lobe rotors with 160 degree twist. Cars like the ZR1 Corvette, Camaro ZL1, CTSV,2013 GT500. All use this blower in varying displacements.

Here's a nice pic of the lobes. Left is a standard old school, right is TVS.

1337HPMustang > wabbalosthiskey 11/28/2014 at 09:43

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Awesome that's great news!

cobro2003 > 1337HPMustang 11/28/2014 at 10:22

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The amount of power increase you see from cams increases with how much the car is already making. ie stock cobras won't see more than a 10-15 rwhp bump from an aggressive cam but a twin screw car will see a 30-40 bump.

1337HPMustang > offroadkarter 11/28/2014 at 10:50

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I'm not sure what the difference is but I've spent a lot of time getting a feel for supercharging by reading forums. Supposedly, an intercooled supercharger bolts right on, you can even use a canned tune if the car is mostly stock, and you can drive it without problems. Somewhere closer to 10 psi people start to get issues and that's when they get meth. The consensus response to "how much power will a supercharger on my 3V make" is:

"I'm at 480whp (dynojet) and have been for about 4,000-5,000 miles now on the stock Kenne Bell tune. so far so good another member on here has 550whp (dynojet) on his stock motor with my same kit just the addition of water/meth injection. he's been running that for 2 years now.

it all depends on the tune and how aggressive it is with the timing. too much timing and 400whp you'll go boom, conservative tune and 550whp could be ok.

that being said I'm sticking to a 500whp limit until I build the motor. and I'm going to run water/meth before I even go to 500whp just to hedge my bet when it comes to avoiding detonation."

1337HPMustang > wabbalosthiskey 11/28/2014 at 11:04

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Wow thank you so much for giving me insight. You really know your stuff. The R2300 is on sale for $5300 which I thought is a good price. The only cheaper systems out there are the vortec kits and the m90 which will put me where I want to be (above 400 hp) but I don't think those kits are staged, so they won't go much further. What is the best bang for my buck if I want to be at a conservative 400-450 whp now, but would like to go +550 a few years down the line? Are you suggesting nitrous?

TDogg > camaroboy68ss 11/28/2014 at 13:48

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I've never understood show cars/trucks. Why put all that money and hard work into it if you're not going to enjoy driving it? (not hating, just legitimately curious)

camaroboy68ss > TDogg 11/28/2014 at 14:07

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I understand where your coming from and I thought the same way growing up.

look at this way, A F1 car has a specific purpose, its not going to be seen cruising the streets or seen at a drag strip. Same thing as a Funny Car, it has one job it doesn't do anything else.

Show cars are built to do one thing, go out and win car shows. A lot of people car people don't know/realize that a good chunk of car shows are not cars and coffee or a Saturday in a parking lot. There is a group called the ISCA (International Show Car Association) http://www.theisca.com/ and its like NASCAR or NHRA, there are classes and point systems that go towards a championship for the year. To get those points you need to place and win in as many shows as you can hit in a year. The only thing that really differs a show car from a F1 car is that at least the F1 is raced and driven where the show car rarely even has fluids in it, (though shows are now starting to require the car must fire up and drive into the building).

Show cars are a place for the detail oriented and artisans to show case their work and how they view a car.

In a nut shell its really kinda the same as all motorsports but these cars are just put on display for competition.

TDogg > camaroboy68ss 11/28/2014 at 14:10

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That makes sense, then. I can applaud that. Badass looking truck too.

offroadkarter > 1337HPMustang 11/28/2014 at 20:04

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Do you have an auto or a manual

Also, boost is NOT a way to accurately gauge how far you can take your engine. Boost is a measure of restriction, not a measure of power. Just because one guy is running X PSI doesn't necessarily mean that is safe for you to.

10PSI from a 2.1L Kenne Bell is not the same as 10PSI from an Eaton M62.

1337HPMustang > offroadkarter 11/28/2014 at 20:12

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I have a manual. And yeah I realize the different kits have different induction pressures but they typically start staging at less than 500 hp to be safe on stock components... that usually equates to less than 10 psi but it's not an absolute measurement by any means.

wabbalosthiskey > 1337HPMustang 11/30/2014 at 13:44

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What year exactly is your car?

Centrifugal kits (like the Vortec) are almost always going to give you more bang for the buck because the one big & expensive part of the kit (the supercharger itself, the head unit) is basically universal - They just change brackets and pulleys and the same unit can fit many applications. That means much lower R&D costs compared to a blower that fits directly to the engine and is very application specific. In addition, it also makes for a super easy upgrade path - You can essentially just change out the head unit. The manufacturers know this and even have upgrade/trade-in programs on the head units.

That doesn't mean they are better than a twin screw or roots style blower, you can debate the pros and cons of each system, but regardless - Centrifugal units will almost always be inherently more power for the money because of their basic design. Now on s197 cars I generally prefer Procharger systems over Vortec for a number of reasons, but I did recently have 2 Vortec cars in that started out as entry-level kits (V2 head units) making around 420rwhp, who wanted more. One was a really basic system, non-intercooled, so we added an intercooler and pullied it up. Then he wanted more so we traded the head unit in for a YSi. The other car was an intercooled V2 that we swapped out for a YSI also, big crank pulley and cams on a build shortblock, and is making 800 now.

Now you can get into a Vortec system for less money, because they offer a more bare-bones kit than most others, but in the end it hurts you. The run off the stock accessory belt which is a 6 rib. This limits the boost you can make because it runs off the stock drive with the stock tensioner; you can only get so much "grip" on the belt and as you change pulleys you start to have slippage and there's basically nothing you can do about it (this can actually a problem on the TVS kit you were looking at too). This turns into a more serious problem as you go faster, because the head unit is designed and fitted to mount in this way, so the mounting all has to change to fix this. Procharger starts off by being designed around it's own separate belt drive with its own tensioner, so you aren't limited. They start off with a wider, shorter belt, and because of the layout can easily by upgraded if need be. Additionally, all Procharger kits are intercooled and so besides the obvious advantage of being intercooled in itself, the layout is designed to accommodate one from the get-go which means things generally fit better and makes upgrading simple. And Vortec's intake 3v pipe is stupid. :P

1337HPMustang > wabbalosthiskey 12/07/2014 at 22:56

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Thanks so much for explaining centris to me, wabba. Your insight was super helpful. I spent the last week reading about different superchargers and I've decided that, while centris would be the logical choice, I don't very much like the sound. They're either whistle-ly or gassy and sometimes I can't even tell there's a supercharger on the car. Unless you can point me toward one that has a cool sound, I think I'd rather pay the premium and get a Roush. Whipples are too pricey for me, and for what I'm after I think one of the two Roush superchargers is what I'll go with.

The M90 is very loud, a few hundred dollars cheaper, gets me to around 450 whp, but isn't as upgradable from what I understand.

The TVS 2300 is a newer tech so it's quieter. From the videos I watched it seems the whine is more subdued. I'm actually worried it might be too quiet. I'd like my car to make some noise when opened up and I'm worried the supercharger isn't going to be noticeable. This might just be my naivety since I've never been in a supercharged car yet. What do you think? If you were to spend $5500 on a non-centri supercharger for a 4.6, which would be your top picks?